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1.7 vs 1.53 refractive index in glasses ??

 
 
carrera d'olbani
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      03-14-2007, 07:24 AM
Hi there,

I finally decided to get new glasses (after having the previous pair
for around 10 years). The modern frames are small and narrow which is
good for people who have long-sightedness but no good for the people
with miopia like myself. Finally, I was able to choose one. I tried
the plastic lens (polycarb ?) , and did not like it because the image
at the edge of the lens was annoyingly less sharp than in my glass
lenses (refractive index 1.53 ?). I think that the higher-index lenses
have the higher optical aberrations (which is seen as a less sharp
image especially at the lens edge) because the light has to bend to a
higher degree. I went to another optometrist, and told him I would
accept only glass lenses (he nevertheless tried to sell me plastic).
He suggested me to get the high-index glass of the 1.7 refractive
index instead of 1.53. Is this going to get me more aberrations ? What
are the people's experiences about the 1.7 glass compared to 1.53 ?

(I value the quality of the image above of everything. I do not care
about the weight. I do not want to get anti-reflective coating because
it will scratch. My lenses are -4 dioptre. The lens frame is 50 mm
across.) Thanks.

 
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Mark A
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      03-14-2007, 12:19 PM
"carrera d'olbani" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:(E-Mail Removed) oups.com...
> Hi there,
>
> I finally decided to get new glasses (after having the previous pair
> for around 10 years). The modern frames are small and narrow which is
> good for people who have long-sightedness but no good for the people
> with miopia like myself. Finally, I was able to choose one. I tried
> the plastic lens (polycarb ?) , and did not like it because the image
> at the edge of the lens was annoyingly less sharp than in my glass
> lenses (refractive index 1.53 ?). I think that the higher-index lenses
> have the higher optical aberrations (which is seen as a less sharp
> image especially at the lens edge) because the light has to bend to a
> higher degree. I went to another optometrist, and told him I would
> accept only glass lenses (he nevertheless tried to sell me plastic).
> He suggested me to get the high-index glass of the 1.7 refractive
> index instead of 1.53. Is this going to get me more aberrations ? What
> are the people's experiences about the 1.7 glass compared to 1.53 ?
>
> (I value the quality of the image above of everything. I do not care
> about the weight. I do not want to get anti-reflective coating because
> it will scratch. My lenses are -4 dioptre. The lens frame is 50 mm
> across.) Thanks.


Please post your Rx so that a proper recommendation of a lens can be made.

Polycarb is 1.59, not 1.53. If it is 1.53, then it may be Trivex or some
other material.

1.70 should only be used for a very strong Rx to help reduce the thickness
of the lens. As already noted by another post, the higher the index, the
worst the optical qualities of the lens, except for polycarb which has the
worst optical qualities of any commonly dispensed lens.



 
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William Stacy
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      03-14-2007, 04:34 PM
carrera d'olbani wrote:

>Hi there,
>
>I finally decided to get new glasses (after having the previous pair
>for around 10 years). The modern frames are small and narrow which is
>good for people who have long-sightedness but no good for the people
>with miopia like myself.
>

I disagree with that. Smaller frames are good for anyone with a
moderate to high power Rx so long as the eyes are fairly well centered
in the lenses. That's because the lenses are thinner and the amount of
your visual space that is covered up by the edges is narrower, so you
actually get more vision.

> Finally, I was able to choose one. I tried
>the plastic lens (polycarb ?) , and did not like it because the image
>at the edge of the lens was annoyingly less sharp than in my glass
>lenses (refractive index 1.53 ?). I think that the higher-index lenses
>have the higher optical aberrations (which is seen as a less sharp
>image especially at the lens edge) because the light has to bend to a
>higher degree.
>

You are right, and polycarb is the worst of all.

> I went to another optometrist, and told him I would
>accept only glass lenses (he nevertheless tried to sell me plastic).
>He suggested me to get the high-index glass of the 1.7 refractive
>index instead of 1.53. Is this going to get me more aberrations ? What
>are the people's experiences about the 1.7 glass compared to 1.53 ?
>
>
>

Anything is better than poly, and glass is the best.

>(I value the quality of the image above of everything. I do not care
>about the weight. I do not want to get anti-reflective coating because
>it will scratch. My lenses are -4 dioptre. The lens frame is 50 mm
>across.) Thanks.
>
>

Anti reflection on glass lenses is very very durable. If you take
halfway good care of them, they will be fine, and the "quality of the
image above of everything" is definitely better with the AR coating.
 
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michael toulch
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Posts: n/a

 
      03-14-2007, 11:20 PM
On Mar 14, 3:24 am, "carrera d'olbani" <dolb...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Hi there,
>
> I finally decided to get new glasses (after having the previous pair
> for around 10 years). The modern frames are small and narrow which is
> good for people who have long-sightedness but no good for the people
> with miopia like myself. Finally, I was able to choose one. I tried
> the plastic lens (polycarb ?) , and did not like it because the image
> at the edge of the lens was annoyingly less sharp than in my glass
> lenses (refractive index 1.53 ?). I think that the higher-index lenses
> have the higher optical aberrations (which is seen as a less sharp
> image especially at the lens edge) because the light has to bend to a
> higher degree. I went to another optometrist, and told him I would
> accept only glass lenses (he nevertheless tried to sell me plastic).
> He suggested me to get the high-index glass of the 1.7 refractive
> index instead of 1.53. Is this going to get me more aberrations ? What
> are the people's experiences about the 1.7 glass compared to 1.53 ?
>
> (I value the quality of the image above of everything. I do not care
> about the weight. I do not want to get anti-reflective coating because
> it will scratch. My lenses are -4 dioptre. The lens frame is 50 mm
> across.) Thanks.


a good 1.7 glass (abbe 40 such as "fit 40") is probably not going to
cause any noticeable chromatic abberation.
polycarb is really bad. Good 1.6 index plastic (MR-8 material) should
be fine if you go the plastic route (for less weight and higher impact
resistance than glass).

 
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carrera d'olbani
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Posts: n/a

 
      03-15-2007, 10:03 AM
On Mar 14, 11:19 pm, "Mark A" <nob...@nowhere.com> wrote:
> "carrera d'olbani" <dolb...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>
> news:(E-Mail Removed) oups.com...
>
>
>
> > Hi there,

>
> > I finally decided to get new glasses (after having the previous pair
> > for around 10 years). The modern frames are small and narrow which is
> > good for people who have long-sightedness but no good for the people
> > with miopia like myself. Finally, I was able to choose one. I tried
> > the plastic lens (polycarb ?) , and did not like it because the image
> > at the edge of the lens was annoyingly less sharp than in my glass
> > lenses (refractive index 1.53 ?). I think that the higher-index lenses
> > have the higher optical aberrations (which is seen as a less sharp
> > image especially at the lens edge) because the light has to bend to a
> > higher degree. I went to another optometrist, and told him I would
> > accept only glass lenses (he nevertheless tried to sell me plastic).
> > He suggested me to get the high-index glass of the 1.7 refractive
> > index instead of 1.53. Is this going to get me more aberrations ? What
> > are the people's experiences about the 1.7 glass compared to 1.53 ?

>
> > (I value the quality of the image above of everything. I do not care
> > about the weight. I do not want to get anti-reflective coating because
> > it will scratch. My lenses are -4 dioptre. The lens frame is 50 mm
> > across.) Thanks.

>
> Please post your Rx so that a proper recommendation of a lens can be made.
>
> Polycarb is 1.59, not 1.53. If it is 1.53, then it may be Trivex or some
> other material.
>
> 1.70 should only be used for a very strong Rx to help reduce the thickness
> of the lens. As already noted by another post, the higher the index, the
> worst the optical qualities of the lens, except for polycarb which has the
> worst optical qualities of any commonly dispensed lens.


Here is the article from Wikipedia. It says that lenses from the
materials with the higher refractive index have the higher chromatic
aberrations. The higher chromatic aberrations are perceived by people
as a higher "blurryness". Perhaps this is what I was witnessing. The
materials with the higher dispesion are said to have the higher Abbe
number (calculated according to the formula). The higher the number
the less is the dispesion, therefore, the better is the optical
quality. In the link below, it is stated that the Abbe number of
plastic (CR 39) is 59.3, which is on par with the low (1.53)-
refractive index crown glass (58.5). It is much higher than the Abbe
number of a high-refractive index glass of a 1.7 refractive index,
namely 36 for Hoya glass.

This should mean that the polycarb should have a very good image
quality from the point of view of chromatic aberration -- the same as
that of glass, in fact. But you and others say that polycarb is bad.
How come ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Correct...39.E2.84.A2.29


 
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William Stacy
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      03-15-2007, 03:39 PM


carrera d'olbani wrote:

>This should mean that the polycarb should have a very good image
>quality from the point of view of chromatic aberration -- the same as
>that of glass, in fact. But you and others say that polycarb is bad.
>How come ?
>
>
>

You managed to find a glass that is just as BAD as polycarb. Stick with
regular crown glass.

high ABBE=good

low ABBE=bad
 
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Mark A
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Posts: n/a

 
      03-15-2007, 03:51 PM
"carrera d'olbani" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:(E-Mail Removed) oups.com...
> Here is the article from Wikipedia. It says that lenses from the
> materials with the higher refractive index have the higher chromatic
> aberrations. The higher chromatic aberrations are perceived by people
> as a higher "blurryness". Perhaps this is what I was witnessing. The
> materials with the higher dispesion are said to have the higher Abbe
> number (calculated according to the formula). The higher the number
> the less is the dispesion, therefore, the better is the optical
> quality. In the link below, it is stated that the Abbe number of
> plastic (CR 39) is 59.3, which is on par with the low (1.53)-
> refractive index crown glass (58.5). It is much higher than the Abbe
> number of a high-refractive index glass of a 1.7 refractive index,
> namely 36 for Hoya glass.
>
> This should mean that the polycarb should have a very good image
> quality from the point of view of chromatic aberration -- the same as
> that of glass, in fact. But you and others say that polycarb is bad.
> How come ?


Because polycarb (1.59 index) is a fundamentally different material than
other "plastics" and has a completely different molecular structure. The one
advantage of polycarb is high impact resistance and high tensile strength.
It has an abbe value of 30, which is the lowest (worst) of any commonly
dispensed lens material.

Trivex has about the same impact resistance and tensile strength as
polycarb, but is 1.53 index, and has a very good abbe value of about 42.


 
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carrera d'olbani
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Posts: n/a

 
      03-24-2007, 09:55 AM
On Mar 16, 1:53 am, Robert Martellaro <rob...@nospam.com> wrote:
> On 15 Mar 2007 04:03:21 -0700, "carrera d'olbani" <dolb...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> >Here is the article from Wikipedia. It says that lenses from the
> >materials with the higher refractive index have the higher chromatic
> >aberrations.

>
> It says the higher the IR the lower the Abbe value. The lower the Abbe value the
> greater the dispersion hence greater transverse chromatic aberration (TCA). This
> is the chromatic aberration created by the prismatic effect at the periphery of
> a lens when looking off axis. The formula for TCA is cF/V, where c is the
> distance from the OC (optical center) in centimeters, F is lens power and V is
> the Abbe value. According to Torgersen, acuity is not affected until TCA reaches
> 0.16 prism diopters and then it drops by one line on the Snellen chart.
>
> >The higher chromatic aberrations are perceived by people
> >as a higher "blurryness". Perhaps this is what I was witnessing. The
> >materials with the higher dispesion are said to have the higher Abbe
> >number (calculated according to the formula). The higher the number
> >the less is the dispesion, therefore, the better is the optical
> >quality. In the link below, it is stated that the Abbe number of
> >plastic (CR 39) is 59.3, which is on par with the low (1.53)-
> >refractive index crown glass (58.5). It is much higher than the Abbe
> >number of a high-refractive index glass of a 1.7 refractive index,
> >namely 36 for Hoya glass.
> >This should mean that the polycarb should have a very good image
> >quality from the point of view of chromatic aberration -- the same as
> >that of glass, in fact. But you and others say that polycarb is bad.
> >How come ?

>
> See the above.
>
> >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Correct...8CR-39.E2.84.A...

>
> Lot's of good information although there are a few errors and misinformation.
> For instance, we do not use bi-convex lenses to correct presbyopia due to
> unacceptable levels of oblique astigmatism and power error. With rare exception,
> ophthalmic lenses use best form meniscus shaped lenses.
>
> Back to your original question- I still haven't heard a reason why you should
> change your lens material from crown glass, although many optical companies
> (primarily the chains) will not supply glass lenses. Most use polycarbonate due
> to profitability and reduce processing time.


OK, here is the full story. I went to the optometrist for new
spectacles (in Oz). He offered me the polycarb lenses, and I said I
did not want them, because they produced too much blur in the
peripheral vision, and thus I wanted glass. He recommended me the
glass of a 1.7 refractive index because it was lighter than the
standard glass (1.53 crown). I did not know why the 1.7 glass should
be optically worse or how much it would be worse, so I reluctantly
agreed.

When I came home, I did research on the Internet (and found the above-
mentioned article on Wiki). It said that the 1.7 glass had the
dispersion as bad as the one of the polycarb. The 1.53 crown glass had
much lesser dispersion (its Abbe number was ~60 vs. ~30 of the
polycarb/1.7 glass). I became unhappy about my future glasses :-( .

When I came to pick up the ready glasses, I saw that my new glasses
produced as blurry image on periphery as the polycarb-fitted glasses
did. When I moved my gaze 1 cm away from the lens centre towards the
periphery (what, 20 degrees ?), the image became very blurry. It was
totally inacceptable to me. I said to the optometrist about it. I
showed him the print-out from Wiki with the data on Abbe numbers of
1.53 and 1.7 glass and of polycarb.

The optometrist told me that he wanted to keep me happy, and I did not
have to buy the glasses. I asked him to fit the ordinary crown glass
lenses into the frame (to replace the 1.7 glass), and said I would pay
for the old and new lenses. The old chap said he already offered the
best spectacles for me, and he would not be doing anything more for
me. He suggested I take my prescription and go to another
optometrist.

I could not believe my ears. I decided that the old guy was not in the
business for money any more (he was practising in this prime downtown
place for 50 years); he was doing the business just for job
satisfaction. I decided that I wanted to try these low-Abbe number
lenses anyway, so I bought the glasses. As an afterthought, the
optometrist told me that I could bring the glasses for refund within 2
weeks if I find them unsuitable.

I now have these glasses. I calculated the transverse chromatic
abberation (TCA) according to your formula above, and actually found
that the Torgersen criterion was correct (the TCA was around 0.33 D
and the acuity actually dropped by about 2 lines). Interestingly, my
old glasses with the 1.53 crown glass lenses also had an acuity drop
at the same peripheral angle as the new glasses, however the drop was
not as much (maybe 0.5-1 line ?). Heck, today I was watching for the
babes walking past me, and I had to turn my head to see them better
(thus, it became evident to my companion that I was actually watching
them) (with my old glasses, I did not have to turn my head and still
saw them clearly at the periphery of the lens !).

Also, the 1.7 glass lenses give a purple or green reflection
(dependent on the viewing angle). This tells me that the lenses have
an anti-reflection (or any other) coating. The optometrist told me
that the lenses had no coating just like I requested. Is there a
coating on my lenses ?

Thanks for your attention.

 
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Salmon Egg
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      03-24-2007, 04:27 PM
On 3/24/07 3:55 AM, in article
(E-Mail Removed). com, "carrera d'olbani"
<(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

> OK, here is the full story. I went to the optometrist for new
> spectacles (in Oz). He offered me the polycarb lenses, and I said I
> did not want them, because they produced too much blur in the
> peripheral vision, and thus I wanted glass. He recommended me the
> glass of a 1.7 refractive index because it was lighter than the
> standard glass (1.53 crown). I did not know why the 1.7 glass should
> be optically worse or how much it would be worse, so I reluctantly
> agreed.


It would be good to get a review of modern glasses and the links between
density and index of refraction. In the old days, light (low density) glass
was crown glass with a low index of refraction and dense glass was flint
glass with a relatively high index of refraction. High density material had
a high density of bound electrons (complicated atoms) that contributed to
index of refraction. Because the power of a lens was proportional to n-1, it
was never clear to me that you could get lower weight optics (spectacles) by
shifting to higher index material. That is, there is no guarantee that
thinner also was lighter.

These days, with fancy materials such as rare earth glasses and who knows
what kind of plastics, the relationship between density and index can be
more obscure. Can anyone supply a link that will clarify these
relationships?

Bill
-- Fermez le Bush--about two years to go.


 
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William Stacy
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      03-26-2007, 08:41 PM


Helpful person wrote:

>
>The higher the refractive index the lower the aberations. The only
>exception is chromatic aberration.
>
>
>

You may or may not be correct on that; I'd be interested in knowing
where you get your data. However, even if it's true that things like
spherical aberration and coma vary inversely with refractive index, I'd
have to hazard a guess that chromatic aberration must be the most
bothersome of all aberrations in eyeglasses...
 
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