Is it possible that the ghost images do not show up in the standardcheckup procedure

Is it possible that faint ghost images normally do not show up in the
standard checkup procedure because the multiple lenses on the checkup
equipment filter them out? If this is true, then millions of patients
like me might have been misdiagnosed.

Here is my story: I saw three images with my right eye, two of them
are light colored ghost images (one is slightly to the left and
another is slightly higher than the original image). I saw these ghost
images with bare right eye or with eyeglass, but not with the
optometrist's flippable lenses (the standard checkup equipment).

Because these faint ghost images were missing in the checkup process,
the prescription that resulted from the checkup procedure merely
enhanced the main image rather than converging the ghost images with
the main image. So I had problem getting the right prescriptions from
optometrist for many years.

Ten years ago an optometrist accidentally proscribed an eyeglasses for
me that merged these three images into one (Sphere 175, Cylinder 25)
even though the ghost images did not show up during the checkup
process. It was pure accident. Recently when my eye sight changed and
needed a new prescription, the checkup procedure again failed to
provide a prescription that could merge the ghost images into one.

I finally convinced an optometrist that the standard checkup process
did not work in my cases, and she used actual test lenses -- which did
show the ghost images -- to come up with the right prescription.

(I think these ghost images are most likely caused by corneal
irregularities since I had it since I was young.)

Is it true that most faint ghost images normally do not show up during
the check up process (due to too many lenses that filter out the ghost
images)? If so, I wish the optometry profession can change its
standard checkup procedure to take the missing ghost images into
account.

On Mar 3, 4:03*pm, "Mike Tyner" <mty...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> You have a good understanding how ghost images appear.
>
> The only thing that changes when you look through the phoroptor is that your
> pupil may enlarge, and more of your cornea comes into play. That might
> reduce ghost images, or it might increase them. Depends on the individual..
>
> Ghost images are created by non-coaxial peaks and valleys on the cornea.
> Most normal topographs show 3 or 4 diopters of variance in their curvature.
> Which portion of your cornea would you like us to make your glasses for? The
> 47-diopter peaks, or the 43-diopter valleys?
>
> We could use lasers to calculate these values with pinhole precision but
> still we have only one lens to put in your frame and it doesn't move with
> your eye.
>
> So we use a system of organic receptors and neural networks to create a
> weighted average, summarized into a single set of values - sphere, cylinder
> and axis.
>
> This normally satisfies your demand for a single-element solution to this
> complex problem. What else should we do?
>
> You may get better results with rigid contact lenses or wavefront PRK.
>
> -MT
>
> <kikiv...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>
> news:bda6ebd4-137f-4282-be61-(E-Mail Removed)...
>
> > Is it possible that faint ghost images normally do not show up in the
> > standard checkup procedure because the multiple lenses on the checkup
> > equipment filter them out? If this is true, then millions of patients
> > like me might have been misdiagnosed.
>
> > Here is my story: I saw three images with my right eye, two of them
> > are light colored ghost images (one is slightly to the left and
> > another is slightly higher than the original image). I saw these ghost
> > images with bare right eye or with eyeglass, but not with the
> > optometrist's flippable lenses (the standard checkup equipment).
>
> > Because these faint ghost images were missing in the checkup process,
> > the prescription that resulted from the checkup procedure merely
> > enhanced the main image rather than converging the ghost images with
> > the main image. So I had problem getting the right prescriptions from
> > optometrist for many years.
>
> > Ten years ago an optometrist accidentally proscribed an eyeglasses for
> > me that merged these three images into one (Sphere 175, Cylinder 25)
> > even though the ghost images did not show up during the checkup
> > process. It was pure accident. Recently when my eye sight changed and
> > needed a new prescription, the checkup procedure again failed to
> > provide a prescription that could merge the ghost images into one.
>
> > I finally convinced an optometrist that the standard checkup process
> > did not work in my cases, and she used actual test lenses -- which did
> > show the ghost images -- to come up with the right prescription.
>
> > (I think these ghost images are most likely caused by corneal
> > irregularities since I had it since I was young.)
>
> > Is it true that most faint ghost images normally do not show up during
> > the check up process (due to too many lenses that filter out the ghost
> > images)? If so, I wish the optometry profession can change its
> > standard checkup procedure to take the missing ghost images into
> > account.

You wrote an excellent piece regarding the cause of ghost images due
to corneal irregularities. I understood fully that the standard
checkup with phoroptor normally only deals with the major peak, and
thank you for suggesting that rigid contact lenses or wavefront PRK
are normally the solution.

If I read your reply earlier, I wouldn't have such a hard time
convincing the optometrists that the standard checkup with phoroptor
wouldn't work for patient like me who had ghost images and would have
saved 30 years of struggling and thousands of money.

The solution for patient like me (millions of them out there) is
probably the following:

1. Eyeglasses solution: for people with ghost images, use test lenses
rather than phoroptor to expose all the ghost images and see if any
prescription can converge all of them into one (I got one that could
do that by accident).

2. Other solutions: use rigid contact lenses or wavefront PRK to
correct all the non-coaxial peaks and valleys on the cornea.

I wish the optometry experts can add something similar to the textbook
to help all the patients with ghost images. As for me, 30 years of
mystery is finally answered with your excellent reply.

Thanks a million!

On Mar 3, 10:58*pm, kikiv...@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Mar 3, 4:03*pm, "Mike Tyner" <mty...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > You have a good understanding how ghost images appear.
>
> > The only thing that changes when you look through the phoroptor is thatyour
> > pupil may enlarge, and more of your cornea comes into play. That might
> > reduce ghost images, or it might increase them. Depends on the individual.
>
> > Ghost images are created by non-coaxial peaks and valleys on the cornea..
> > Most normal topographs show 3 or 4 diopters of variance in their curvature.
> > Which portion of your cornea would you like us to make your glasses for? The
> > 47-diopter peaks, or the 43-diopter valleys?
>
> > We could use lasers to calculate these values with pinhole precision but
> > still we have only one lens to put in your frame and it doesn't move with
> > your eye.
>
> > So we use a system of organic receptors and neural networks to create a
> > weighted average, summarized into a single set of values - sphere, cylinder
> > and axis.
>
> > This normally satisfies your demand for a single-element solution to this
> > complex problem. What else should we do?
>
> > You may get better results with rigid contact lenses or wavefront PRK.
>
> > -MT
>
> > <kikiv...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>
> >news:bda6ebd4-137f-4282-be61-(E-Mail Removed)....
>
> > > Is it possible that faint ghost images normally do not show up in the
> > > standard checkup procedure because the multiple lenses on the checkup
> > > equipment filter them out? If this is true, then millions of patients
> > > like me might have been misdiagnosed.
>
> > > Here is my story: I saw three images with my right eye, two of them
> > > are light colored ghost images (one is slightly to the left and
> > > another is slightly higher than the original image). I saw these ghost
> > > images with bare right eye or with eyeglass, but not with the
> > > optometrist's flippable lenses (the standard checkup equipment).
>
> > > Because these faint ghost images were missing in the checkup process,
> > > the prescription that resulted from the checkup procedure merely
> > > enhanced the main image rather than converging the ghost images with
> > > the main image. So I had problem getting the right prescriptions from
> > > optometrist for many years.
>
> > > Ten years ago an optometrist accidentally proscribed an eyeglasses for
> > > me that merged these three images into one (Sphere 175, Cylinder 25)
> > > even though the ghost images did not show up during the checkup
> > > process. It was pure accident. Recently when my eye sight changed and
> > > needed a new prescription, the checkup procedure again failed to
> > > provide a prescription that could merge the ghost images into one.
>
> > > I finally convinced an optometrist that the standard checkup process
> > > did not work in my cases, and she used actual test lenses -- which did
> > > show the ghost images -- to come up with the right prescription.
>
> > > (I think these ghost images are most likely caused by corneal
> > > irregularities since I had it since I was young.)
>
> > > Is it true that most faint ghost images normally do not show up during
> > > the check up process (due to too many lenses that filter out the ghost
> > > images)? If so, I wish the optometry profession can change its
> > > standard checkup procedure to take the missing ghost images into
> > > account.
>
> You wrote an excellent piece regarding the cause of ghost images due
> to corneal irregularities. I understood fully that the standard
> checkup with phoroptor normally only deals with the major peak, and
> thank you for suggesting that rigid contact lenses or wavefront PRK
> are normally the solution.
>
> If I read your reply earlier, I wouldn't have such a hard time
> convincing the optometrists that the standard checkup with phoroptor
> wouldn't work for patient like me who had ghost images and would have
> saved 30 years of struggling and thousands of money.
>
> The solution for patient like me (millions of them out there) is
> probably the following:
>
> 1. Eyeglasses solution: for people with ghost images, use test lenses
> rather than phoroptor to expose all the ghost images and see if any
> prescription can converge all of them into one (I got one that could
> do that by accident).
>
> 2. Other solutions: use rigid contact lenses or wavefront PRK to
> correct all the non-coaxial peaks and valleys on the cornea.
>
> I wish the optometry experts can add something similar to the textbook
> to help all the patients with ghost images. As for me, 30 years of
> mystery is finally answered with your excellent reply.
>
> Thanks a million!

One correction (in quotes):

OLD: I understood fully that the standard
checkup with phoroptor normally "only deals with the major peak".

NEW: I understood fully that the standard
checkup with phoroptor normally "do not deal with the non-coaxial
peaks and valleys on the cornea".

On Mar 3, 10:58*pm, kikiv...@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Mar 3, 4:03*pm, "Mike Tyner" <mty...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > You have a good understanding how ghost images appear.
>
> > The only thing that changes when you look through the phoroptor is thatyour
> > pupil may enlarge, and more of your cornea comes into play. That might
> > reduce ghost images, or it might increase them. Depends on the individual.
>
> > Ghost images are created by non-coaxial peaks and valleys on the cornea..
> > Most normal topographs show 3 or 4 diopters of variance in their curvature.
> > Which portion of your cornea would you like us to make your glasses for? The
> > 47-diopter peaks, or the 43-diopter valleys?
>
> > We could use lasers to calculate these values with pinhole precision but
> > still we have only one lens to put in your frame and it doesn't move with
> > your eye.
>
> > So we use a system of organic receptors and neural networks to create a
> > weighted average, summarized into a single set of values - sphere, cylinder
> > and axis.
>
> > This normally satisfies your demand for a single-element solution to this
> > complex problem. What else should we do?
>
> > You may get better results with rigid contact lenses or wavefront PRK.
>
> > -MT
>
> > <kikiv...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>
> >news:bda6ebd4-137f-4282-be61-(E-Mail Removed)....
>
> > > Is it possible that faint ghost images normally do not show up in the
> > > standard checkup procedure because the multiple lenses on the checkup
> > > equipment filter them out? If this is true, then millions of patients
> > > like me might have been misdiagnosed.
>
> > > Here is my story: I saw three images with my right eye, two of them
> > > are light colored ghost images (one is slightly to the left and
> > > another is slightly higher than the original image). I saw these ghost
> > > images with bare right eye or with eyeglass, but not with the
> > > optometrist's flippable lenses (the standard checkup equipment).
>
> > > Because these faint ghost images were missing in the checkup process,
> > > the prescription that resulted from the checkup procedure merely
> > > enhanced the main image rather than converging the ghost images with
> > > the main image. So I had problem getting the right prescriptions from
> > > optometrist for many years.
>
> > > Ten years ago an optometrist accidentally proscribed an eyeglasses for
> > > me that merged these three images into one (Sphere 175, Cylinder 25)
> > > even though the ghost images did not show up during the checkup
> > > process. It was pure accident. Recently when my eye sight changed and
> > > needed a new prescription, the checkup procedure again failed to
> > > provide a prescription that could merge the ghost images into one.
>
> > > I finally convinced an optometrist that the standard checkup process
> > > did not work in my cases, and she used actual test lenses -- which did
> > > show the ghost images -- to come up with the right prescription.
>
> > > (I think these ghost images are most likely caused by corneal
> > > irregularities since I had it since I was young.)
>
> > > Is it true that most faint ghost images normally do not show up during
> > > the check up process (due to too many lenses that filter out the ghost
> > > images)? If so, I wish the optometry profession can change its
> > > standard checkup procedure to take the missing ghost images into
> > > account.
>
> You wrote an excellent piece regarding the cause of ghost images due
> to corneal irregularities. I understood fully that the standard
> checkup with phoroptor normally only deals with the major peak, and
> thank you for suggesting that rigid contact lenses or wavefront PRK
> are normally the solution.
>
> If I read your reply earlier, I wouldn't have such a hard time
> convincing the optometrists that the standard checkup with phoroptor
> wouldn't work for patient like me who had ghost images and would have
> saved 30 years of struggling and thousands of money.
>
> The solution for patient like me (millions of them out there) is
> probably the following:
>
> 1. Eyeglasses solution: for people with ghost images, use test lenses
> rather than phoroptor to expose all the ghost images and see if any
> prescription can converge all of them into one (I got one that could
> do that by accident).
>
> 2. Other solutions: use rigid contact lenses or wavefront PRK to
> correct all the non-coaxial peaks and valleys on the cornea.
>
> I wish the optometry experts can add something similar to the textbook
> to help all the patients with ghost images. As for me, 30 years of
> mystery is finally answered with your excellent reply.
>
> Thanks a million!

Addendum: How to differentiate ghost images and near/far sightedness.

Ghost images are often mistreated as near/far sightedness, especially
when the ghost image is very close to the main image. Here is the
procedure that can differentiate the two:

Draw a dot on the paper. Cover one eye and see the dot with another
eye. If the dot becomes blurred but retain the same round shape, then
it is near or far sightedness.

If one sees two or more dots, then there is ghost image. The cures are
different:

1. The far/sightedness can be cured with a routine checkup with
phoroptor.

2. The ghost image problem can be cured with actual test lenses (to
expose and converge the images), or rigid contact lenses or wavefront
PRK (to correct all the non-coaxial peaks and valleys on the
cornea).

I believe all optometry checkup should begin with this simple test to
identify the root cause first.

On Mar 4, 12:11*am, "Mike Tyner" <mty...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> <kikiv...@yahoo.com> wrote
>
> > 2. The ghost image problem can be cured with actual test lenses (to
> > expose and converge the images), or rigid contact lenses or wavefront
> > PRK (to correct all the non-coaxial peaks and valleys on the
> > cornea).
>
> I disagree with this.
>
> When we refract, we get a set of sphere-cylinder values that most accurately
> correct the "main" image.
>
> If some OTHER set of sphere-cylinder values did a better job of converging
> the ghost images, it would NOT correct the main image as well.
>
> Would you prefer blurry roadsigns in order to converge the ghost images?
>
> > I believe all optometry checkup should begin with this simple test to
> > identify the root cause first.
>
> Unless you have a second pupil, we already know the root cause.
>
> -MT

In my case, I used to have 20-20 vision and my main images were fine,
I was "only" bothered by the ghost images which disguised as
farsightedness, All I need was merging the ghost images into the main
image.

The best solution would probably be:

1. Use the standard procedure to find the best prescription for the
main image.
2. Use "dot test" to see if patient has ghost image problem. If no,
then exit. If yes, then proceed to the next step.
3. Use the actual test lenses to expose the ghost images. If the ghost
images are very faint and do not bother the patient, then exit with
the prescription provided by first step.
4. If the ghost images are bothering the patient (and/or cause
headache), try to adjust the sphere and/or cylinder to converge the
ghost images.
5. If there is a prescription that can converge the ghost images
without blurring the main images too much, then this is an option that
the patient can choose.
6. If all the above fails, use rigid contact lenses or wavefront PRK
to correct all the non-coaxial peaks and valleys on the cornea.

On Mar 4, 1:43*am, kikiv...@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Mar 4, 12:11*am, "Mike Tyner" <mty...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > <kikiv...@yahoo.com> wrote
>
> > > 2. The ghost image problem can be cured with actual test lenses (to
> > > expose and converge the images), or rigid contact lenses or wavefront
> > > PRK (to correct all the non-coaxial peaks and valleys on the
> > > cornea).
>
> > I disagree with this.
>
> > When we refract, we get a set of sphere-cylinder values that most accurately
> > correct the "main" image.
>
> > If some OTHER set of sphere-cylinder values did a better job of converging
> > the ghost images, it would NOT correct the main image as well.
>
> > Would you prefer blurry roadsigns in order to converge the ghost images?
>
> > > I believe all optometry checkup should begin with this simple test to
> > > identify the root cause first.
>
> > Unless you have a second pupil, we already know the root cause.
>
> > -MT
>
> In my case, I used to have 20-20 vision and my main images were fine,
> I was "only" bothered by the ghost images which disguised as
> farsightedness, All I need was merging the ghost images into the main
> image.
>
> The best solution would probably be:
>
> 1. Use the standard procedure to find the best prescription for the
> main image.
> 2. Use "dot test" to see if patient has ghost image problem. If no,
> then exit. If yes, then proceed to the next step.
> 3. Use the actual test lenses to expose the ghost images. If the ghost
> images are very faint and do not bother the patient, then exit with
> the prescription provided by first step.
> 4. If the ghost images are bothering the patient (and/or cause
> headache), try to adjust the sphere and/or cylinder to converge the
> ghost images.
> 5. If there is a prescription that can converge the ghost images
> without blurring the main images too much, then this is an option that
> the patient can choose.
> 6. If all the above fails, use rigid contact lenses or wavefront PRK
> to correct all the non-coaxial peaks and valleys on the cornea.

One correction:
OLD: 2. Use "dot test" to see if patient has ghost image problem.
NEW: 2. Use "dot test" (with bare eyes) to see if patient has ghost
image problem

Reason for correction: the ghost images are often missing when we see
through phoroptor due to reasons we discussed earlier.

On Mar 4, 3:31*pm, "Mike Tyner" <mty...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> <kikiv...@yahoo.com> wrote
>
> > 5. If there is a prescription that can converge the ghost images
> > without blurring the main images too much, then this is an option that
> > the patient can choose.
>
> Then that's how you should do it.
>
> I'm not even sure it's possible. In my understanding of physics, it's pretty
> hard to rectify non-coaxial ray bundles with a fixed lens 10 mm away. Fixing
> one ghost accentuates another.
>
> But worst case, you'll just have to remake several pairs of glasses.
>
> It's possible that most people don't notice ghost images and even if we
> point them out, prefer maximum acuity.
>
> -MT

Not according to my case.

On Mar 4, 3:31*pm, "Mike Tyner" <mty...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> <kikiv...@yahoo.com> wrote
>
> > 5. If there is a prescription that can converge the ghost images
> > without blurring the main images too much, then this is an option that
> > the patient can choose.
>
> Then that's how you should do it.

Disagree. You have good knowledge but poor judgment.

> I'm not even sure it's possible. In my understanding of physics, it's pretty
> hard to rectify non-coaxial ray bundles with a fixed lens 10 mm away. Fixing
> one ghost accentuates another.
>
> But worst case, you'll just have to remake several pairs of glasses.

The eyeglasses I got (Sphere +175 Cylinder -0.5) converges the ghost
images into the main image in my case. Maybe I am just being lucky.

> It's possible that most people don't notice ghost images and even if we
> point them out, prefer maximum acuity.

You wouldn't say so if you have ghost images yourself.

On Mar 5, 12:09*am, "Mike Tyner" <mty...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> <kikiv...@yahoo.com> wrote
>
> > Disagree. You have good knowledge but poor judgment.
>
> Maybe I just need more experience.
>
> >> It's possible that most people don't notice ghost images and even if we
> >> point them out, prefer maximum acuity.
> >You wouldn't say so if you have ghost images yourself.
>
> I guess mine must be something else.
>
> -MT

There are different causes of ghost images, and each one may demand
different solutions. This should be obvious.

But this is not what I am talking about. My point is that millions of
patients saw ghost images and went to optometrists for help. The
minute the optometrists put on the phoroptor on the patient, the ghost
images disappeared (or weakened). The checkup continued and the
patient got a prescription.

The day the new eyeglasses arrived, the patient happily put on the
glasses and saw the ghost images again. They told the optometrist that
the prescription didn't work, and the optometrists panic and gave the
patient a slightly different prescription. So the optical store had to
remake the eyeglasses for the patients for free.

This major blunder repeated over and over again -- millions of
patients were misdiagnosed, billions of money were wasted -- all
because the ghost images are missing in the checkup with phoroptor.

But my point fell on deaf ears over and over again by the optometry
professions. All I heard is either ghost images doesn't matter or it
is pointless to expose the ghost images during the checkup procedure.
I am simply running out of patience with this insanity.

Thanks for your input. Let's stop this conversation right here.