vision - perception / attention

Hi,

Just looking for some friendly pointers, advice, etc.

Several years ago, my right eye had a retinal detachment, followed
with the customary procedures (silicon oil, scleral buckling, etc).
In parallel, I noticed changes in my memory and attention but did not
link the two, mainly because every physician said there was no
relationship.

When fatigued, I notice that my eye rolls up in my head when the
images aren't able to fuse (generally fatigue). There is also a
regional decrease in blood flow to the area of my face around my right
eye that can be temporarily be restored with patching the ipsalateral
eye, accompanied with a perceptual shift (e.g. stimulating and
increased awareness).

I work as an engineer in sensors, computing, and tracking so I've
found this claim of no relationship odd, if not astounding. Knowing
it is commonly accepted that the left and right hemispheres process
information differently, one broadly the other narrowly, the current
suspicion is the retinal detachment results in an information signal
entering the left hemisphere (associated with detail, logic,
language). The brain then tries to minimize the errors between the
two images, but for the case of an interference signal does so by
reducing the blood flow to the region around that eye. For now,
unless requested, I'll spare you of all the other similarities (e.g.
Shannon, Nyquist, Kalman, coding theory)

This has been a recurring problem for years, and I'd be happy just to
have the blood flow restored (small doses of psuedophedrine mildly
helps) Does anyone have any advice on who to see, what might be going
on, or how this is treated? My primary care doc says there is no
relationship. The ophthalmologist doesn't seem to care about
cognitive concerns.

thanks!

"(E-Mail Removed)" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in
news:(E-Mail Removed) ups.com:

> I work as an engineer in sensors, computing, and tracking so I've
> found this claim of no relationship odd, if not astounding. Knowing
> it is commonly accepted that the left and right hemispheres process
> information differently, one broadly the other narrowly, the current
> suspicion is the retinal detachment results in an information signal
> entering the left hemisphere (associated with detail, logic,
> language). The brain then tries to minimize the errors between the
> two images, but for the case of an interference signal does so by
> reducing the blood flow to the region around that eye. For now,
> unless requested, I'll spare you of all the other similarities (e.g.
> Shannon, Nyquist, Kalman, coding theory)

I'm an engineer, and a visual scientist. I understand all the terms you've
thrown up, but much of what you've said simply isn't true.

--
Scott
Reverse name to reply

Let me answer your questions, and then resummarize, separating the
history, symptoms and hypothesized mechanisms. My prior post
contained a huge error in that it is the opposite eye being patched
and not the ipsilateral eye.

Here are responses to your questions:
Yes, there is a buckle.
Regarding the cover test, images definitely jump around when
alternating the eye that is covered.
The regional blood flow is a feeling of increased pressure in the
right side of the face. There is also a slight discomfort as if blood
is pumping through an occluded pipe. When patching, this sensation
begins within seconds rather than a delayed experience, so it's
apparently linked through cause/effect rather than hypothesized theory
or delayed correlation.
These symptoms were present since the retinal detachment, just not
being observed due to the complexity of issues involved at that time.
The RT was due to a viral infection so I was just glad to have vision
in the other eye, even if double. I imagine most people in this
situation are older (I was in my 20s) and less neurotic about memory/
attention declines.
Isn't pseudophedrine also a mild stimulant?

Here are some readily observed properties when only the eye with the
detached retina is viewed (contralateral covered):
Estimated peripheral loss, more in the right field of view of about
50%. Darker / reduced contrast dynamic range of vision. Decreased
resolution / pixelation. Lines aren't completely edges (wavy). The
image also jumps when blinking (poor stabilization). Also, when non-
patched for extended periods of time, changes and motion are more
difficult to track (reduced sample rate). As mentioned, patching does
increase the sensation of blood flow to that region and visual
properties improve, including tracking across time. This sensation
happens within seconds, so a direct relationship is virtually certain
(rather than hypothesized correlation). this is also followed with an
increased perceptual sense of presence and image recognitioin
(attention/memory relationship). I assume people with incorrect
prescriptions might experience something lesser though analagous,
though more subtle.

With both eyes operating unpatched:
When blinking slowly, images take about 0.2 seconds to fuse. The rate
of acceleration of fusion is logarithmic. Fusion starts out quick and
slows during the final fusing process. Then the interference image
disappears. The estimated SNR ratio difference between the two images
is probably a factor of at least 3. With quick head turns (no
blinking, or coverage), the fusion is slightly under half a second. In
general, the rate of fusion is a function of edges in the visual
field. For example, it takes longer when looking at shower tile than
a wall with less edges.

Also, when patching (e.g. after information is forced through the bad
eye to increase the visual properties of the right eye), is followed
with unpatching, double vision is actually worse and the fused result
is more blurry. (one reason why the brain would want to reduce the
interferrence)

Those are the symptoms, readily and immediately observable. I'll
refrain from elaborating too greatly on the hypothetical mechanisms
which are apparently controversial. But essentially as mentioned
before, the brain is attempting to fuse a good image with an
interferrence image strongly correlated across both space and time.
(the correlation properties in the case of interference is worse than
if no image was present). The optimization is to attenuate the signal
from the detached retina and part of that mechanism is to reduce
blood flow to the facial area around the eye. The input and feedback
elements are certainly self-observable. Again, I'll refrain from
stating what type of control models could be used (based on
acceleration of fusion), but certainly it's reasonable to expect some
error minimization, information maximation, chaotic control element
present (where each of these are closely related)

FYI: I was surprised to find similar modelling used at Brown and Iowa
State (http://www.cs.brown.edu/research/areas/
comp_neuroscience.html)

Obviously, I (might) be happier if this were something more
correctable like a muscle or mechanical problem. With your stated eye
patch test, looking to the right also has the effect of slight
discomfort, but sensations out of the norm are difficult to describe.

Thanks for your help and any future tips.



Just looking for some friendly pointers, advice, etc.

Optometrists love engineers.

> Several years ago, my right eye had a retinal detachment, followed
> with the customary procedures (silicon oil, scleral buckling, etc).

So you still have the buckle? Is that when you acquired the 1.5
vertical
deviation?

> In parallel, I noticed changes in my memory and attention but did not
> link the two, mainly because every physician said there was no
> relationship.

What would that relationship be? Circulatory? Did you coincidentally
have a
temporal lobe stroke at the same time?

> When fatigued, I notice that my eye rolls up in my head when the
> images aren't able to fuse (generally fatigue).

Then your "cover test" is probably abnormal any time you care to check
it.
Do images jump up and down when you alternate your hand over either
eye?
That's a good technique to play with, because you'll probably find
it's
different in different directions of gaze, and that tells you which
muscles
and nerves are most likely involved.

> There is also a
> regional decrease in blood flow to the area of my face around my right
> eye

Whoa whoa whoa - that's too much conclusion and not enough data.

Did it start about the same time or later on? How often? Any other
circulatory problems?

What are you calling a "regional decrease in blood flow?" Pallor?
Decreased
sensation? Tingling? Splotchy appearance?

> that can be temporarily be restored with patching the ipsalateral
> eye,

Meaning the pallor goes away and the skin pinks up? White blotches
disappear? What tells you it's "restored?"

And "ipsilateral" means same-side, right?

I'm willing to believe you, if you'll allow me to question some of
your
assumptions.

> accompanied with a perceptual shift (e.g. stimulating and
> increased awareness).

OK I'll buy that, but first get a handle on what's physically
measurable and
demonstrable. "Stimulating and increasing awareness" is very hard to
measure. Even then, it only occurs at the top of your spinal cord,
nowhere
near the eye or its arteries or even the optic pathway. It boils down
to you
"feel different" when the circulation changes around your eye,
correct? Or
is it you "feel different" when you patch the right eye? Never mind, I
say
shelve the question and come back to it.

> I work as an engineer in sensors, computing, and tracking so I've
> found this claim of no relationship odd, if not astounding.

Do you mean all of these symptoms occur at the same time, each time,
repeatedly?

Did this all start when you had buckle surgery?

> Knowing
> it is commonly accepted that the left and right hemispheres process
> information differently,

Whoa whoa whoa... sure maybe but how is that related to scleral buckle
surgery, migrainous spasm, or sudden memory loss and wandering
attention?

> one broadly the other narrowly,

You're trying to solve a plumbing problem with the wiring diagram for
the
phone system.

> the current
> suspicion is the retinal detachment results in an information signal
> entering the left hemisphere (associated with detail, logic,
> language).

Oops. You owe it to yourself to study this picture:
http://instruct.uwo.ca/anatomy/530/vistopo.gif

> The brain then tries to minimize the errors between the
> two images, but for the case of an interference signal does so by
> reducing the blood flow to the region around that eye.

If you have an intermittent spasm of the arteries surrounding your
eye, it
isn't reasonable to assume that the brain is involved.

> For now,
> unless requested, I'll spare you of all the other similarities (e.g.
> Shannon, Nyquist, Kalman, coding theory)

Not requested. I think you're depending on the vague assumption that
"everything's somehow connected," without considering the physiology
diagram. Nerves and muscles and blood vessels are all wired together,
but
not always as you might imagine. Without the right diagrams, neither
one of
us can diagnose a problem.

> This has been a recurring problem for years, and I'd be happy just to
> have the blood flow restored (small doses of psuedophedrine mildly
> helps)

Pseudoephedrine is vasoconstrictor. What's wrong with this picture? If
PE
helps, you might think sinus congestion plays a part.

> Does anyone have any advice on who to see, what might be going
> on, or how this is treated? My primary care doc says there is no
> relationship. The ophthalmologist doesn't seem to care about
> cognitive concerns.

See a neurologist if you have "congnitive concerns." Get an MRI.

Don't assume the cognitive problems have anything to do with your
eyes. They
might, but the arteries on one side of the face are pretty well
removed from
the arteries in your temporal lobes, frontal lobes, and reticular
activating
system, and a neurologist will be most equipped to put those problems
together.

-MT, OD




On Mar 25, 1:17 am, "Mike Tyner" <mty...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> <patentwan...@gmail.com> wrote
>
> > Just looking for some friendly pointers, advice, etc.
>
> Optometrists love engineers.
>
> > Several years ago, my right eye had a retinal detachment, followed
> > with the customary procedures (silicon oil, scleral buckling, etc).
>
> So you still have the buckle? Is that when you acquired the 1.5 vertical
> deviation?
>
> > In parallel, I noticed changes in my memory and attention but did not
> > link the two, mainly because every physician said there was no
> > relationship.
>
> What would that relationship be? Circulatory? Did you coincidentally have a
> temporal lobe stroke at the same time?
>
> > When fatigued, I notice that my eye rolls up in my head when the
> > images aren't able to fuse (generally fatigue).
>
> Then your "cover test" is probably abnormal any time you care to check it.
> Do images jump up and down when you alternate your hand over either eye?
> That's a good technique to play with, because you'll probably find it's
> different in different directions of gaze, and that tells you which muscles
> and nerves are most likely involved.
>
> > There is also a
> > regional decrease in blood flow to the area of my face around my right
> > eye
>
> Whoa whoa whoa - that's too much conclusion and not enough data.
>
> Did it start about the same time or later on? How often? Any other
> circulatory problems?
>
> What are you calling a "regional decrease in blood flow?" Pallor? Decreased
> sensation? Tingling? Splotchy appearance?
>
> > that can be temporarily be restored with patching the ipsalateral
> > eye,
>
> Meaning the pallor goes away and the skin pinks up? White blotches
> disappear? What tells you it's "restored?"
>
> And "ipsilateral" means same-side, right?
>
> I'm willing to believe you, if you'll allow me to question some of your
> assumptions.
>
> > accompanied with a perceptual shift (e.g. stimulating and
> > increased awareness).
>
> OK I'll buy that, but first get a handle on what's physically measurable and
> demonstrable. "Stimulating and increasing awareness" is very hard to
> measure. Even then, it only occurs at the top of your spinal cord, nowhere
> near the eye or its arteries or even the optic pathway. It boils down to you
> "feel different" when the circulation changes around your eye, correct? Or
> is it you "feel different" when you patch the right eye? Never mind, I say
> shelve the question and come back to it.
>
> > I work as an engineer in sensors, computing, and tracking so I've
> > found this claim of no relationship odd, if not astounding.
>
> Do you mean all of these symptoms occur at the same time, each time,
> repeatedly?
>
> Did this all start when you had buckle surgery?
>
> > Knowing
> > it is commonly accepted that the left and right hemispheres process
> > information differently,
>
> Whoa whoa whoa... sure maybe but how is that related to scleral buckle
> surgery, migrainous spasm, or sudden memory loss and wandering attention?
>
> > one broadly the other narrowly,
>
> You're trying to solve a plumbing problem with the wiring diagram for the
> phone system.
>
> > the current
> > suspicion is the retinal detachment results in an information signal
> > entering the left hemisphere (associated with detail, logic,
> > language).
>
> Oops. You owe it to yourself to study this picture:http://instruct.uwo.ca/anatomy/530/vistopo.gif
>
> > The brain then tries to minimize the errors between the
> > two images, but for the case of an interference signal does so by
> > reducing the blood flow to the region around that eye.
>
> If you have an intermittent spasm of the arteries surrounding your eye, it
> isn't reasonable to assume that the brain is involved.
>
> > For now,
> > unless requested, I'll spare you of all the other similarities (e.g.
> > Shannon, Nyquist, Kalman, coding theory)
>
> Not requested. I think you're depending on the vague assumption that
> "everything's somehow connected," without considering the physiology
> diagram. Nerves and muscles and blood vessels are all wired together, but
> not always as you might imagine. Without the right diagrams, neither one of
> us can diagnose a problem.
>
> > This has been a recurring problem for years, and I'd be happy just to
> > have the blood flow restored (small doses of psuedophedrine mildly
> > helps)
>
> Pseudoephedrine is vasoconstrictor. What's wrong with this picture? If PE
> helps, you might think sinus congestion plays a part.
>
> > Does anyone have any advice on who to see, what might be going
> > on, or how this is treated? My primary care doc says there is no
> > relationship. The ophthalmologist doesn't seem to care about
> > cognitive concerns.
>
> See a neurologist if you have "congnitive concerns." Get an MRI.
>
> Don't assume the cognitive problems have anything to do with your eyes. They
> might, but the arteries on one side of the face are pretty well removed from
> the arteries in your temporal lobes, frontal lobes, and reticular activating
> system, and a neurologist will be most equipped to put those problems
> together.
>
> -MT, OD