farwell to the cast of sci.med.vision

Discussion in 'Eye-Care' started by Eye Question, Mar 3, 2006.

  1. Eye Question

    Eye Question Guest

    In the never ending drama made especially for the internet, (soon to be in a
    theater near you. )


    Otis - He is not a doctor, and does not claim to be. Seems like an
    intelligent engineer with a passion to help people to try and prevent
    myopia.. He admits he is not qualified to give medical advice. Recommends
    getting second opinions from ODs that support his theory that myopia can be
    prevented or reduced. His argument makes sense on paper but needs
    data to back it up!

    Ace - Draws alot alot of negative attention because he is
    sometimes in support of what Otis is preaching. Claims to be reducing his
    dependancy on glasses by taking Otis's advice. Go Ace GO! Not sure
    of his age or drug habits, but this is used in discrediting him. Seems
    to get bashed even for seemingly intelligent posts.

    The Central Scrutinizer - Seems to not know much about the eye or its
    response, my guess is he is currently trying to self diagonose himself as
    either a
    sociopath or dissocial personality disorder. Seems to jump on the bandwagon
    with Otis bashing, hoping for acceptance into society. (all but a virtual
    one )

    Neil Brooks - Trying to run Otis out of town by getting the feds involved.
    Screams every few days that Otis is not qualifed to give medical advice.
    Seems to think that posting to a newsgroup and recommending a getting a
    second opinion is illegal.

    Dan Abel - Seems like a level headed person that stays out of the debate
    about plus vs. minus and is probably why people come to this group for
    medical advice. If I had a medical problem with my eyes I would trust him.

    Mike Turner - A living text book. Another resource for people looking for
    true medical advice. Seems to be a mentor to Ace, as he does a good job of
    correcting anything Ace writes that "isn't by the book". If I had a medical
    problem with my eyes I would trust him.

    DrG - Seems to totally disagree that myopia is a result of close work, or
    it can be prevented. Seems to have the same symptoms as "The Central".

    The Real Bev - Likes to waste bandwidth and disk space on hundreds
    of thousands of newsservs hard drives and personal computers around the
    world by posting a "Welcome message". This message whines about that posts
    by non-medical professionals about theory pertaining to the eye, is a waste
    of disk space. Its 2006, disk space is virtually unlimted! I agree this
    is a "med" newsgroup, and the plus & fixing myopia arguement is getting
    old . Even though this is a "real" theory for debate,

    Well its been fun... Back to just lurking in this group, like 864,000 other

    Can you believe this is one of the most read newsgroups in the med world?

    Congrats, you are all famous! And for a short time, so was I....
    Eye Question, Mar 3, 2006
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  2. Eye Question

    acemanvx Guest

    Dr. Grant- very rude, vulgar guy. My friends talk about him and his
    manners, lack of. He used to be nicer in the past but now all he does
    is scream, swear and cuss. Poor cranky old man!

    Otis is a nice guy who is concerned about the vision of children and
    does not want them to face a life time of myopia. He has successfuly
    prevented myopia in his own nephew and several children. Myopia
    prevention takes lots of effort, he even tells you that you need to put
    lots of time, effort and be motivated to clear your vision. Not
    everyone gets 20/20 but he speaks of the DMV 20/40. Pass that and your
    good to go without glasses forever.

    I believe in much of what Otis says in addition, I believe in the Bates
    method for natural vision improvement. My own vision improved by a
    diopter in the last year and is still improving!
    acemanvx, Mar 3, 2006
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  3. Eye Question

    CatmanX Guest

    Ace, fucking moron who knows shit about anything. Pity he uses any
    brains for evil instead of kindness. Pretends to have friends, but
    doesn't. Has his mummy and daddy send him to bed for being naughty.

    Dr grant, absolute legend who knows all there is to know about eyes.
    Has the science and intuition to accurately diagnose over the net. Sees
    stupidity at 100 pixels and exposes stupid morons who extol idiotic
    tripe about curing something they know nothing about.
    CatmanX, Mar 3, 2006
  4. Eye Question

    Dr. Leukoma Guest

    At one time I'm sure that the flat earth theory looked good on paper,
    EQ. As I said before, you have simply fallen for a good, but very old
    and disproven story. But, if you don't believe me, get off your
    double-wide and do your homework.
    What you know about what I believe is about as much as you know about
    myopiagenesis. Anybody can relate heredity and close work to myopia.
    The difficult part is trying to figure out what it is about close work
    that triggers myopia in "some" people. Why don't you contribute
    something useful and figure this out for us?

    Eye Question: A naive newbie who believes in fairy tales.

    Dr. Leukoma, Mar 3, 2006
  5. Eye Question

    Neil Brooks Guest

    Jim Jones got 913 people to drink the Kool-Aid. Charlie Manson got his
    disciples to commit the Tate-LaBianca murders. David Koresh got 76
    people to endure some pretty ghastly immolation.

    I'll pass. You follow your faith wherever it leads you. At some point
    (think Christian Scientists), the State tends to intervene, declaring
    you not competent to make decisions and preventing you from endangering
    the welfare of your children. What neither of us knows (and, to my
    knowledge, ISN'T yet known) is what inappropriate interference with the
    near-vision triad (plus lenses) can do to young eyes.

    You also may want to be sure that you understand the difference between
    pseudomyopia and myopia.

    Good night, Gracie....
    Neil Brooks, Mar 3, 2006
  6. Eye Question

    Dick Adams Guest

    Is it fair to require a person or "Question" who/which asks a question,
    to figure out what the answer to his question is, particularly if it is the
    Question itself which poses it?

    My particular question got lost in the babble months ago, but I would
    like to present it once again. Deeply in my heart, I believe it is a useful

    What is it in the anatomical structure of the eye which supplies the
    restoring force which returns the lens to its far-focus rest condition
    when the ciliary muscle relaxes? Which is to say, what structure(s)
    would correspond to the "springs" in my diagram at

    Yes, I have heard that that theory belongs to some one (in addition
    to me) who is known to be a fool. Perhaps that is the best answer
    one can get here.
    Dick Adams, Mar 3, 2006
  7. Eye Question

    otisbrown Guest

    Dear Eye_Question,

    Subject: Myself.
    eye it is clear to me that
    (as a bad habit) I INDUCED
    a negative refractive state
    in my natural eyes. (Slight,
    like 20/40.)

    Thus, having induced such
    a state makes me personally
    responsible for the consequences.

    At the 20/40 level (as your
    son now is) it is possible
    to PREVENT this situation.

    I do not know your son, and
    clearly he probably has not
    interest in prevention,
    but it would not hurt to
    offer him a choice.

    I do not need the "harassment"
    by Neil Brooks, and there
    is an indication that Brooks
    has committed mail fraud on
    me. I will find out eventually.

    That is the reason I depart,
    I fear such a person --and
    if I practice ANYTHING
    with the plubic, I sure
    as hell would not attempt
    "prevention" with the public,
    consisting of "Central" and

    This is why you will receive
    no preventive information -- and
    your son will go "down"
    about -1.3 diopters (average)
    in a four year college.

    If you are interested, then


    The second-opinion site where
    there is a more "open mind"
    about prevention at the


    otisbrown, Mar 3, 2006
  8. Eye Question

    Neil Brooks Guest

    What the HELL are you talking about now??

    Neil Brooks, Mar 3, 2006
  9. Eye Question

    Neil Brooks Guest

    Let me go one step further:

    Before you go accusing me of a FELONY online, you'd better make sure
    you have some solid evidence, asshole, and you can't.

    I have told you repeatedly--and I have stood by my word--that I would
    use EVERY LEGAL MEANS at my disposal to ensure that you were not in a
    position to continue to hurt people by practicing medicine without a
    license. Using the law is what I have done. I have not broken any
    laws, nor will I.

    If the State of Pennsylvania deems fit to bring charges against you,
    then they will do so based on "informed choice."

    You need to curtail your libel, Mr. Brown. Seriously.
    Neil Brooks, Mar 3, 2006
  10. Eye Question

    Dr. Leukoma Guest

    became nearsighted SOLELY as a result of the environment. I think this
    is where you get off on the wrong foot, and continue to limp along on
    that same foot.
    What a ridiculous notion to assert that you are anywhere close to being
    "open minded." Hello, but it is 2006 and you are still mucking around
    in studies that were published 20 to 30 years ago, and have a false
    understanding of their conclusions at that.

    Dr. Leukoma, Mar 3, 2006
  11. Eye Question

    Dr. Leukoma Guest

    Springs or ligaments? The ligaments suspending the lens are called the
    zonules, or Zonules of Zinn. I am not aware of any other structures
    connecting the lens to the CB.

    Dr. Leukoma, Mar 3, 2006
  12. Eye Question

    CatmanX Guest

    The spring is the muscle itself. The ciliary muscle is smooth muscle
    and acts by contracting and relaxing. The relaxation phase is generally
    a little slower than the contraction which is active vs relaxation
    which is passive.

    What clowns like Otis and Ace don't understand is that this is
    different from striated (skeletal muscle) as it is the only smooth
    muscle under voluntary control in the body. Smooth muscle does not get
    stronger by using it more as does striated muscle, it actually fatigues
    with continuous usage. This is why we get so many kids needing reading
    glasses these days as we make them read more at school. It also begins
    to explain the myopia/pseudomyopia debate (no not entirely explain) as
    we then start to see personal style effet the muscle with things such
    as stress, attention, amount of close work etc.

    This is such a complex area, I am yet to find 2 researchers in the area
    tha thave either a clear idea of what affects these issues, or a
    similarity in opinion as to the cause.

    dr grant
    CatmanX, Mar 3, 2006
  13. Eye Question

    Dan Abel Guest

    Doesn't improve his credibility a lot.

    Now, if he could only get in some contact with reality.
    How is the tooth fairy doing?
    Dan Abel, Mar 3, 2006
  14. Eye Question

    Dan Abel Guest

    Seems is the word.

    No, he is bashed because he thinks he knows everything.

    Thanks. I hope I can help people understand what their doctor is
    advising them.
    Dan Abel, Mar 3, 2006
  15. Eye Question

    Dick Adams Guest

    Makes no sense! Takes contraction to provide tension. Relaxation
    is not good for providing tension.

    Please review my diagram http://home.att.net/~muffkat/accommodation/
    I presumed springy elements exterior to the ciliary muscle. I understand
    that the Zonules are neither muscular nor elastic. In that diagram, the
    Zonules would be represented by the lines between the lens and the
    circle denoted as the muscle. I am trying to identify the springy structure(s).

    Yes -- when ciliary muscle contracts it relieves tension transmitted to
    the periphery of the lens by the Zonules, allowing the lens to round up
    according to its own internal forces. In relaxing, it allows that tension
    to be restored, to cause the lens to become less convex thus to reachieve
    far-point focus (which happens, for myopic eyes, to be short of infinity).

    My question was about what structure(s?) supplies the restoring tension.
    I guess the question was just too hard. Let's just forget it and go back
    to bashing Otis and Ace. Bash me, too. Why not?
    I'd be happy to find 2 eye-care professionals who have a clear idea of
    how eyes work. But I guess that is not essential for writing scripts and
    fitting prostheses.
    Dick Adams, Mar 4, 2006
  16. Eye Question

    LarryDoc Guest

    Clearly, there are a few folks around here whose autonomics work
    oppositely. They've got a sphincter that's sadly open, and leaking.

    LarryDoc, Mar 4, 2006
  17. Eye Question

    RM Guest

    thats the subject of every message otis posts!


    Otis "Engineer" is a zealot who advocates his "plus lens" prevention theory
    without good reason. There is no scientific data to prove what he proposes.
    He would ask that all myopes (=nearsighted persons) go around wearing plus
    reading glasses in hopes that it will eventually reverse their
    nearsightedness. Nevermind that the blurry distance vision that myopes
    complain about is made worse by plus lenses! Nevermind that there is no
    proof for what he claims.

    If you are interested in Otis' approach, I have some other links that you
    might also be interested in:





    For information on killfilling (filtering out the posts of a troll or
    spammer like Otis) see the following link:
    For additional information on handling "trolls", refer to this link:
    RM, Mar 4, 2006
  18. Eye Question

    Dick Adams Guest

    Perhaps we are looking here at a central-dogma failure.
    Irrelevant! This discussion is about what may when the ciliary muscle
    relaxes. Please review my diagram at
    I propose that an elastic structure restores, via the Zonules, tension
    on the periphery of the lens when the ciliary muscle relaxes.

    A muscle in relaxing does not produce tension. Perhaps engineers
    could come up with a ring of some material which could exert force
    as it expanded, but it would be hard to do with smooth muscle, and
    it is doubtful that calling the device a sphincter would solve the problem.
    Perhaps that is the genesis of the misnomer "tonic accommodation".

    It is much easier to assume that the mechanism comes to rest at
    complete relaxation. That concept is most readily facilitated by
    postulating a springy element which returns the lens to its far-focus
    shape when the ciliary muscle relaxes completely.

    If that element were the sclera, it would explain some of the ugly
    consequences of extreme myopia, like floaters and retinal detachment.
    It is consistent with the lens moving forward (as well as becoming
    more convex) for near focus. But it is hard to believe that a little
    gadget like the ciliary body could deform the eyeball so much as to
    squeeze it to egg shaped.

    I am trying not to go there. But recently there was a study done to
    show that a earth-collision bound asteroid could be diverted by
    placing a small robot spacecraft in proximity to it so that its small
    gravitational attraction could be applied over a sufficient interval.
    Which makes one think that a small force applied over a sufficient
    amount of time can have a big effect.
    Oh, that is so typical -- when the discussion gets confusing, start
    calling names!
    Dick Adams, Mar 4, 2006
  19. Eye Question

    Dick Adams Guest

    I am not. The only time I am aware of Otis is when you idiots reply
    to his posts. Why the **** do you do it?
    Dick Adams, Mar 4, 2006
  20. Eye Question

    Dr. Leukoma Guest

    From Adler's Physiology of the eye, 6th ed., Mosby:

    "At one time it was speculated that the choroid was too tender a
    structure to be pulled upon by the ciliary muscle. The choroid is thin
    but is actually as elastic as rubber over a limited range....The
    choroid is stretched forward by the ciliary muscle contraction.
    The forward movement of the ora serrata with accommodation has been
    measured...about 0.05 mm with each diopter of accommodation..."

    So it would appear that the "springy things" are actually the elastic
    tissue of the choroid and ciliary body.

    Dr. Leukoma, Mar 4, 2006
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