Ortho-K, anyone here have experience or knowlege?

"Clearing". "DMV". This has gone beyond pathetic, far away from stupid
and way past clueless. We're into "funny". I have a strange sense of
humor, and I don't expect many to be with me here.

I avoid the DMV, and they avoid me. It is a *really* small part of my
life. The only thing I spend less time at is getting my pilot's license.

I spend a lot of time having a life. This involves seeing. I don't
define this in terms of what the DMV wants.

 

What planet are you from? OK isn't for people who are unconcerned about
their vision. It is for people who want good vision.

For christ sake dickhead, learn about what you speak of. OK is a great
treaiment for myopes. It is not the alternative to Lasik, as Lasik is
not the alternative to glasses. It is simply another means of
correction, admittedly a brilliant one. As with Lasik, all appropriate
measures need to be taken to ensure that the right candidates are
selected.[/QUOTE]


I ain't doing Lasik. Even if I needed it. Even if I was a candidate.
Not my choice. Everyone I've talked who had it, loved it. If somebody
understands the risks and the possible problems, and wants it, I'll
suggest that they go for it. As far as I am concerned, it is on the
borderline.

 

"1) We do cycloplegic refractions more often than you think
2) Cycloplegic refractions don't cure pseudomyopia.
3) Pseudomyopia does not cause axial myopia."


1. Your a great optometrist!
2. No but they detect it(ditto to latent hyperopia) and the approperate
action can be taken. Any pseudomyopia I have I can work to clear this.
Its good to know my cycoplegic.
3. How long does pseudomyopia last anyhow? I want to get it out and be
seeing the best I can. pseudomyopia is impairing my vision for nothing!


"Oh! So you think acuity measurements are based on what you can
"reliably
read?" That could be part of the problem."


Well let me explain it in a way everyone can understand. Theres
different levels of vision even if both read the same line. I can read
18/25 while dad can read 22/25. The optometrists consider both of us
20/25 but my dads reading the 20/25 line easily and without missing a
beat. No problem for him. He cant quite make out 20/20 still. I on the
other hand cant quite make out 20/25 but for some reason the
optometrist insists on me trying anyway. I strain and guess my best on
shape reconization and if im lucky I get some right then the
optometrist smiles and looks satisfied and proclaims me 20/25. Some
people say the snellen chart should have more lines like 20/18, 20/22,
20/28, 20/35, etc. Right now it goes in 5s like 15, 20, 25, 30 and in
10s like 40, 50, 60, 70, 80. After that theres a few lines and it stops
at 400.

I guess you could consider me between 20/25 and 20/30 but since theres
no line between that, 20/30 is the next line I can read. Many people
between lines can guess a few on the lower line


"You're off by a factor of 10. Among healthy people your age, it's more
like
2%. If accuracy matters."


Were talking full 20/20 here, no getting lucky with guesses, no half
way counting. Age doesnt have much to do with it, high order
aberrations do. Hey ive seen "old" people see better than 20/20 as
well! Its true many old people lose eyesight due to cateracts,
refractive errors(commonly hyperopia) and other diseases but a healthy
"old" eye is the same as any healthy eye.


"Where did you get this from? You may get improvement from Wavefront
specs, but not perfect vision, especially if you have crap optics
already."

well the first generation wavefront glasses dont work for 9 out of 10
people. Crap optics doesnt matter as long as my eye and retina are
healthy. high order aberrations is like complex astigmastim that can be
corrected but we dont yet have the technology to fully correct for
this, but once we do, most people will be 20/10 or better. 20/10 may
become the new standard like 20/20 is now.


"Who cares, noone wears retainers through the day."

They have to be worn a number of hours and I can choose to wear them
when I get out of the house for the sharpest distance vision. Around
the house it doesnt matter. I dont know how much better vision is with
retainer lenses than without but if I was really concerned about it, I
may be better off with RGP lenses then. I am just concerned about
reducing my glasses dependancy and of course I can enjoy much sharper
vision anyway.

"What planet are you from? OK isn't for people who are unconcerned
about
their vision. It is for people who want good vision."

OK means as in okay. Lasik gives improved uncorrected vision, that much
is pretty certain unless your a very low myope.


"It is not the alternative to Lasik, as Lasik is
not the alternative to glasses. It is simply another means of
correction, admittedly a brilliant one. As with Lasik, all appropriate
measures need to be taken to ensure that the right candidates are
selected."


You are right, lasik, glasses, contacts, orthoK are all ways to improve
uncorrected vision. Lasik is the most convinent of the following vision
corrections but its also the least effective with many people
regressing, still needing glasses, developing complications, etc.
Contacts, especially RGP is the opposite of lasik. Its the least
convinent not to mention its also not always comfortable but the most
effective. Glasses are like a middle road. I consider glasses more
convinent than contacts. Ive worn soft contacts and was aware of their
presence and my eyes felt dry and achy much of the time. If lasik goes
well you wont feel it and youll have natural uncorrected vision, albet
at reduced quality and often accuracy as well.


"I ain't doing Lasik. Even if I needed it. Even if I was a candidate.

Not my choice."


Well your probably happy with glasses and/or contacts and you expect
more than what lasik can deliver, ie perfect vision.

 

Dear Dan,

Subject: Clearing from 20/70 to 20/40 -- or BETTER

There is no doubt that "clearing" vision with a
strong minus lens is very easy, very simple
and "convincing".

Indeed I have no argument with people who
put their own children into a strong minus -- and
insist that the child wear that minus ALL THE TIME.

But, in due course the parents become "concerned"
as their child's vision plummits through, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6
diopters of myopia.

If you do this to the natural primate eye -- then
that is the predictable behavior of the natural eye.
If you don't mind -- well then everything is fine -- right?

But if a person wishes to "keep" his naked eye vision,
then he has an obligation to keep his distant vision
"legal" as a minimum. That means reading
his own eye chart and making certain he
passes the 20/40 line (standard for most states).

I certainly suggest that he continue AGRSSIVE use
of the plus AFTER he passes the 20/40 line -- as
a matter of personal responsibility and understanding.

Of course, you have no interest in this -- and
if offered this type of true-prevention, you would
turn it down cold. But then, you can not
complain about the consequences.

As posted by Steve, he preferred to clear
his vision from 20/200 (-3 diopters) to pass
the DMV test. If he wishes, he can continue
to work to "clear" his visual acuity to a
"sharper" level -- but that issue is now
completely under his control, and
NOT under OD control. He is certainly happy
with HIS success. Would you deny him that?

Best,

Otis

 

Dear Dan,

Subject: Clearing from 20/70 to 20/40 -- or BETTER

There is no doubt that "clearing" vision with a
strong minus lens is very easy, very simple
and "convincing".

Indeed I have no argument with people who
put their own children into a strong minus -- and
insist that the child wear that minus ALL THE TIME.

But, in due course the parents become "concerned"
as their child's vision plummits through, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6
diopters of myopia.

If you do this to the natural primate eye -- then
that is the predictable behavior of the natural eye.
If you don't mind -- well then everything is fine -- right?

But if a person wishes to "keep" his naked eye vision,
then he has an obligation to keep his distant vision
"legal" as a minimum. That means reading
his own eye chart and making certain he
passes the 20/40 line (standard for most states).

I certainly suggest that he continue AGRSSIVE use
of the plus AFTER he passes the 20/40 line -- as
a matter of personal responsibility and understanding.

Of course, you have no interest in this -- and
if offered this type of true-prevention, you would
turn it down cold. But then, you can not
complain about the consequences.

As posted by Steve, he preferred to clear
his vision from 20/200 (-3 diopters) to pass
the DMV test. If he wishes, he can continue
to work to "clear" his visual acuity to a
"sharper" level -- but that issue is now
completely under his control, and
NOT under OD control. He is certainly happy
with HIS success. Would you deny him that?

Best,

Otis

 

[ALL of claptrap snipped]

Saying it again has no positive impact on your message's validity,
Uncle Otie ;-)

 

Otis, I've spoken with the participants of
alt.parents.of.myopic.monkeys. They welcome you into the fold.

[rest of anecdotal claptrap graciously snipped]

 

"You can be confident it'll be gone by age 50. Most see continuous and
gradual improvement during their 30s and 40s."


Or how about I work hard to clear my pseudomyopia now so I enjoy good
vision a year from now and not when I get old?


"Before you "explain" it, you might read a little about accepted
psychophysical measurement techniques and how they are derived
statistically."


I will search this on google, but like I said, two people can be both
"20/20" or both be "20/25" whatever and yet they can compare visions
and one "clearly" comming ahead of others like reading street signs
first, being able to see the prices at a greater distacee and then
theres also quality of vision. Me and my dad both got labled 20/25 yet
my dad can constantly see better than me. I have friends who claimed
they were 20/20 and some couldnt even read signs and bullots, such as
in a store from as far as I could. I told them no way your 20/20, im
20/30 and you cant even read as far as I can!


"Then you don't understand how acuity is measured."


Then different optometrists have their own ways of measuring
accuracies. Some optometrists "get" lots of 20/15 results while others
get less than 50% who measure 20/20. The eyecharts they use, how their
eyecharts are calibrated, how far subject stands from eyechart, the
quality of the eyechart, the illumination of the eyechart and room, the
policy the optometrist employs all factor in how youll get. Over the
years I can tell you most optometrists have considered me a 20/25 but a
few have considered me 20/20 and some consider me 20/30. I do not see
as well as a "real" 20/25 person. Again, ive challenged my friends who
were told they were 20/20 and they all scored differently, most of them
scoring between 20/20 and 20/25 in reality with some barely even
scoring 20/25!


"So what are "cortical haze" and "diminished contrast sensitivity?"
Like most
doctors, I consider 20/15 to be normal acuity for healthy young
adults."


Even if so, this doesnt make 20/20 abnormal in the least and its still
a VERY good accuracy, period.
Normal accuracy in younger people is 20/20. 20/15 is above average,
better than normal. Just google it and youll see. Average drops in
older people only because many develop diseases. If your eye is healthy
you can keep your good vision.


20/20 vision Many eyecare practitioners consider this the average
visual acuity for human beings, but some humans can see as well as
20/15 or rarely, even 20/10. People with 20/40 vision can see clearly
at 20 feet what people with 20/20 vision can see clearly at 40 feet. In
most of the United States, 20/40 is the lowest uncorrected acuity
required for a driver's license.

 

"Few people can read 20-15 or better. The average good vision is
20-20."


http://wb11.empowereddoctor.com/story.php?id=87


"People with unusually good eyesight, usually kids, may have 20/15 or
20/10 vision)"


Well im not a kid anymore but an adult. Yes its more among your very
young fellows but notice that 20/15 or better is *unusually good* as
they say!


I just dont think such super vision as nearly as common as you say
*unless* maybe all the sharp eyed guys drop by you for a visit

 

I don't clear my vision with minus lenses. I don't use plus lenses
either. My truck has windshield wipers. That's how I clear my vision.

 

Dear William,

In fact I did not make any statement to Ace, other
that to respond to his Ortho-K question.

I also recognize that once a person accepts
and wears an over-prescribed minus -- his
eyes "adapt" to the minus lens, and takes
the primate eye "down". Once that is
started, "recovery" is not possible. Therefore
a person must make up his mind about
true-prevention BEFORE he starts wearing
that wretched minus.

This means working the issue while vision
is on the 20/40 to 20/60, range -- when the
person can function most of the time with no
minus. Provided he clears to better-than 20/40,
and keeps his vision as passing the 20/40, there
is no legal reason why he should be wearing that
minus.

Best,

Otis

 

Ah, so if the person wearing the minus lens that you consider
"over-prescribed" is, in fact, a monkey, then they might get more
nearsighted.

Is that right?

I'm still confused....

 

"You could do that."

you bet I will, especially after knowing how much pseudomyopia I have
to clear once I get cyclopentolate.


"Acuity is acuity. If you don't standardize the test instructions and
test
conditions, you get variable results."


This is why I take people who claim they are 20/15 and especially 20/10
with more than a grain of salt. I also take high myopes who claim they
are 20/20 with skeptism. I am not really considered a high myope and my
glasses minification makes the 20/20 line too small to see a single
letter off that one. It is absolutely true you have to be BETTER than
20/20 in order to see 20/20 thru high minus glasses.


"> Then different optometrists have their own ways of measuring

That's true enough."

Now I know why you report that you get alot of "20/15" results! I bet
youd give me a 20/20 result like a few optometrists have, although most
consider me 20/25 and some 20/30. I consider my own self 20/30 and I
really actually can not reliabily see 20/25. Perhaps with contacts ill
be able to see most or even all of the 20/25 line by avoiding the -5
minification of glasses.


"Varied conditions, varied instructions, and varied effort all
contribute to
variable results."

Explains why so many people get "20/20" after lasik yet they complain
they arent seeing quite as well as they did with glasses and especially
contacts. Hmmmm.


"Acuity is only one measure of vision."

Post lasik people are especially keen about this. They will explain
from experience the limitations of snellen eyecharts very, very well.

"Thanks for explaining that."

your welcome. Something I and others can learn


"girls, maybe"

Prefer women rather than "girls" and well thats a different topic
entirely but I seem to have vision, eyesight and optometrics on my mind
frequently =)


"Once that is
started, "recovery" is not possible. Therefore
a person must make up his mind about
true-prevention BEFORE he starts wearing
that wretched minus."

So if you become or started out as nearsighted but never resort to the
evil minus lense, you have a reasonable chance of some(clearing 20/40)
or even complete recovery and better yet, avoiding stair-case myopia?

"You never said why farsighted people don't "go down." Reckon it's the
plastic in those wretched minus lenses?"

Farsighted people dont become more farsighted, they only go thru
emmetropization and approach plano and if things go too far, they too
become myopes then have to use the plus lense to recover or if they use
the evil minus, their eyes are ruined!


Anyway my first step is get a cycoplegic refraction. If my myopia is
larely pseudo, all I need to do is clear that to reduce my dependancy
on the evil minus in order to keep my eyes from getting more axial
myopia stair-case style. If I dont have enough pseudomyopia, orthoK
will assist in helping to clear my vision so I see much better sans the
minus lense =)

 

Laugh my fucking head off.

Ace is entering the twilight zone. "when I get cyclopentolate......".
You will never get cyclopentolate as you are too stupid to do anything
about it. And besides, once you found out how mucjh of a dickhead you
really are, then you won't want to bore the crap out of everyone with
stupid questions you know nothing about, and posting clips from other
dropkicks at other sites and claiming them to be true and that the
devil created Lasik to punish unbelievers and that god hates eye
doctors and ..................

The bottom line is that you are a total tosser Ace and you can't escape
what you really are, no matter how hard you try to deny it.

dr grant

 

Need I show everyone what you said? Guess so!


Grant said: Forget the reams of bullshit space ace, you are still a
total wanker.
Your mummy and daddy think you are a wanker too as they won't take you
for an eye test because they don't believe a word you say (pretty smart
they must be).
Why don't you start a thread titled "am I myopic because I play too
much with my penis?" Or what about "am I a pseudomyope because my penis
is so small that I can only think about playing with it?"
You should have listened to your mother when you were younger.

My reply: LOL are you 12 or something "doctor" Grant? I had a good
laugh!

 

If the subjects have seen this eyechart before and have a good memory,
the next time they will recall from selective memory. Also theres many
reasons why you get different results than other optometrists:

I have the following concerns. This does not add up(unless its purely
coincidental) because 20/20 is the standard for normal vision and 20/15

exceeds it. Also at least 25% of people arent corrected to 20/20(ive
shown you proof of this, kind sir) yet not only do you get everyone to
20/20 you get 7 out of 10 better than this!


1. Ok what kind of eyechart do you use, kind sir? Tradational snellen?
Vision tester?(the kind popular for driving eye tests) projector
snellen?(specify type too, theres one with mirrors, theres one onto a
big white sheet of paper or plastic, theres a computerized one)


2. Are the subjects at the proper distance? If your eyechart properly
calibrated? I can also see the 20/20 line with glasses from 15 feet
with effort and definatly from 13 feet without much of a problem. I
have heard of subjects leaning or walking closer. One guy was bragging
about his 20/15 vision but it turns out he was standing 15-16 feet
away! Hey I can "improve" lines by standing just a few feet closer!


3. Do they all "happen" to be high hyperopes? The magnification effect
can easily "add" another line. I know of high hyperopes who dont wear
contacts for the sole reason they cant see 20/15 with them but they can

with their plus glasses which magnifiy! Hey I could do the same by
overcorrecting myself with minus contacts then "get" 20/20 with plus
glasses!


4. What is your rules and explanations? How many of each line is on
your eyechart, how many different letters does it have(5? 7? 10?) and
whats your policy for guessing? If someone obviously shows trouble
seeing the line(gets it wrong then corrects himself) or pauses then
resumes with a delay but gets some or most right, even if they all were

lucky guesses, does this still "count"? What percentage must be
correct? The official standard is actually 4 out of 5 from what I read.

Others will give the "pass" if you see more than 2/3 of the line while
others are "generous" and "pass" you even if your seeing half or less!


5. Was the lighting used bright or did the subjects squint? Under
either condition, I can make out 20/25 by reading an eyechart outside
on a sunny day or peeping in a pinhole. It is not uncommon for people
to improve an additional line using those means due to high order
aberrations being minimized with a small retinal image.


6. Were they all children? Its true that people in that age are more
likley to see 20/20 or better than middle age people or old people.


7. Wavefront anything or RGP contacts. Both of them are known to
correct some high order aberrations and give exceptionally crisp
vision. I would not be supprised in the least to be seeing 20/20 with
RGP contacts(they also dont minify) and only a little supprised(but
more amazed) to see 20/15!


8. I almost forgot to add this one, but were your patients recalling
from memory? If they have gotten an eye exam before or seen this chart
before, they can use selective memory and recall from that. I am
careful to make sure I actually see the letters and not just recall
them from my memory even though they look nothing more than dots(or
blobs) to me.

 

Good idea, show it again. Let the world know what a fuckwit you are.

dr grant

 

Dear Ace,

When I was younger -- I would ask your "type" of
questions.

Then I would get this self-serving bull s___ of the
type you see from "Dr" Grant.

I see this as simply self-protective arrogance.

When you see people treating you this why -- then
you can figure they have something to hide -- someting
that they don't want you to understand.

Just remember -- there are other second-opinion
ODs who AGREE that true-prevention is possible -- if
you have the force-of-will to do it youself.

Why must you do it youself?

Because you can not "trust" people who
insult you as you are asking honest
scientific questions about the dynamic
behavior of the natural eye.

Good lunc, and Merry Christmas

Otis

 

Hey Otis you silly bloody moron. You at least got pne bit right - OD's
do want true prevention, there is just no way of stopping myopic
progression and anyone who claims they can is a bigger fool than George
W.

There is NO study that has ever shown prevention of myopia, there is no
reliable study that shows regression of progress. RGP's have been
invalidated, bifocals have been invalidated, undercorrection has been
invalidated (this is the one you push, but the science has shown this
to make myopia increase!!!).

Fools such as space cadet are not asking questions, they ignore
everything that is discussed and hold onto some kernel that they choose
to believe in. Ace was going to get Lasik, now he hates it. Why???
Because he has determined he is not a good candidate. How did he arrive
at that??? Not by getting an eye test, which would be the logical
option, but by deciding he has high order aberrations, although he has
never been tested for them. He is probably forme fruste KC as wll, but
we will never know as he HAS TO GET AN EYE TEST FIRST.

Take your rubbish somewhere else.

dr grant

 

"When you see people treating you this why -- then
you can figure they have something to hide -- someting
that they don't want you to understand."

Optometrists like to hide the fact myopia is preventable and treatable.
Last time I got an eye exam, I told my optometrist about vision
improvement and he said impossible, eyes go in one direction, they get
worse. When my brother went in and his new pescription was half diopter
less, his optometrist just made some lame excuse. My mom was amazed
that my brother did improve his vision. He only wears glasses for
driving, thats why. As long as he rejects the minus lense, his eyes
should never get worse.


"OD's
do want true prevention, there is just no way of stopping myopic
progression"


My brother stopped his own myopia progression. My sister on the other
hand ruined her eyes with glasses and contacts.


"undercorrection has been
invalidated (this is the one you push, but the science has shown this
to make myopia increase!!!)."

Dont pay attention, ive been undercorrecting myself for months and my
vision has improved. I probably was a -6 at my worst now I can see
pretty much fine with the -3.25 glasses im wearing now! Still a little
blurry but slowly getting better Thank you Otis!


"Ace was going to get Lasik, now he hates it. Why???"


I was just contemplenting lasik and even got an evaluation. I was not
going to rush into lasik without reading everything about it. Millions
of people look into lasik, do their research then decide to do it or
not. I was sucked into the hype of lasik, but the more I learned about
it, the more limitations I saw. Basically lasik, prk is a surgury that
gambles your vision for a chance to possibily reduce your dependancy on
glasses. Its ironic many people still wear glasses part or full time
still! Many end up in readers or bifocals when they develop presbyopia
because they threw away their gift of myopia and traded minus lenses
for plus. Even if you end up not needing glasses for the time being,
you trade away some visual quality and in many cases, visual accuracy.
You see better without glasses all right but you dont see as well as
you did with glasses before surgury.


"Because he has determined he is not a good candidate."

Even "perfect" candidates can have problems. Bad candidates probably
WILL have problems!


"How did he arrive
at that??? Not by getting an eye test, which would be the logical
option"


Ive gotten eye tests all right. I can see for myself at home in the
mirror how huge my pupils are. I am not certain on the size, but its
bigger than the great majority of people's pupils. I am willing to bet
my naturally dilated pupils are over 8mm and could even break the 1cm
barrier! Yes you heard this right, one centimeter big pupils!


"but by deciding he has high order aberrations, although he has
never been tested for them."


I have gotten a topography. All laser surgury induces more aberrations
so whatever aberrations I have is irrevelent, I will get more of them
and end up with really crappy vision with or without glasses. The best
vision is your vision before refractive surgury.


"He is probably forme fruste KC as wll, but
we will never know as he HAS TO GET AN EYE TEST FIRST."


If someone has KC they would see very, very poorly, sometimes even with
RGP and need a corneal transplant. Someone correcting to 20/30 or 20/40
probably just has more high order aberrations than average.